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Saturday, 16 May 2015

Seanad Reform 2015

Working Group on Seanad Reform

The Taoiseach has established a Working Group on Seanad Reform. The principal focus of the working group will be on possible reforms of the Seanad Electoral system within the existing constitutional parameters. The Working Group will also explore ways of reforming Seanad Éireann generally and the manner in which it carries out its business. The Group will examine these issues also within existing Constitutional parameters.

The Working Group will examine submissions and proposals for reform which have already been made and will also look at:
• the role of a reformed Seanad within the political process;
• the powers and functions of a reformed Seanad; and
• any such matter as the working party sees as relevant.

Members of the Working Group: The Group is chaired by
Dr. Maurice Manning (Chancellor of the National University of Ireland and former Senator)
Mary O'Rourke (former Minister and Senator)
Pat Magner (former Senator)
Dr. Maurice Hayes (former Senator, former Northern Ireland Ombudsman and former Chairman of the National Forum on Europe)
Joe O’Toole (former Senator)
Tom Arnold (former Chairman of the Constitutional Convention)
Dr. Mary C Murphy (lecturer in politics in UCC)
Dr. Elaine Byrne (commentator and author on public policy)

The Working Group on Seanad Reform held its first meeting 17th December 2014

Working Group on Seanad Reform - Consultation Process

Submissions received by the Working Group on Seanad Reform


Unfortunately the consultation was announced just before christmas so it was exteneded
Working Group on Seanad Reform Consultation Process - extension of closing date for submissions MerrionStreet
Working group on Seanad Reform
Submissions received by the Working Group on Seanad Reform

Working group on Seanad Reform Report

I dont think they mentioned having the election the same day as the dail election , the biggest disappointment in the taoiseach's seanad reform working group report

Draft Bill produced by the Working Group
As a first step, I intend on meeting with the opposition party leaders to discuss its contents. I have also requested the Working Group to make a presentation to the Oireachtas Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht, and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on the Seanad. I hope that the Chairperson and some members of the Working Group will also attend a hearing in the Seanad for further debate and analysis.

The Maurice Manning and Joe O'Toole two member of the working group discussed the report in the Seanad on the 5th of May 2015.

Has Kenny met the opposition on it?

Statement by the Taoiseach on the Report of the Working Group on Seanad Reform

Dail 31 Reform Timleine
Seanad Electoral Reform Bill 2013 John Crown 01/03/2013
Seanad Bill 2013 Senator Katherine Zappone; and Senator Feargal Quinn; and Senator Mary Ann O'Brien 09/05/2013
Seanad (No. 2) Bill 2013 [PMB] Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly and Deputy Noel Grealish and Deputy Finian McGrath and Deputy Mattie McGrath and Deputy Shane Ross 28/05/2013
Referendum Failed 04/10/2013
A Bill to Reform the Seanad Senator Katherine Zappone 07/10/2013
Seanad Reform: Statements 23/10/2013
Seanad Reform Bill 2014 Deputy Micheál Martin 09/05/2013
Seanad Reform: Motion Katherine Zappone 29/01/2014
Political Reform: Motion David Norris 12/02/2014
Seanad Reform 100 Days Since The People Decided Democracy-Matters 21/02/2014
Report Of The Working Group On Seanad Reform
Report of Working Group on Seanad Reform 2015: Statements Seanad debates Wednesday, 8 July 2015

revised Seanad reform proposals

University Franchise Extension

General Scheme of the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill 2014

At the 2011 Seanad elections there were some 151,000 voters on the combined registers for the two university constituencies.
It is estimated that up to 800,000 people would be entitled to register under the planned reforms.
so extra 650k

o a single six-member constituency to replace the present two university constituencies;
o an extension of the franchise to include graduates from third level educational institutions that heretofore did not form part of the university constituencies of Seanad Éireann;
o the franchise to apply to the holders of a major award validated by an awards body in the State and recognised through the National Framework of Qualifications to be at least ordinary bachelor degree level;
o other technical provisions for the organisation of elections – this includes the creation of a register of electors, the appointment of a returning officer and arrangements for taking the poll and counting the votes;
o alternative arrangements for the nomination of candidates to bring them more into line with reforms made in other electoral codes;
o new provisions for the filling of casual vacancies based on the ‘replacement candidates list’ system that operates for European Parliament elections in Ireland.

Public Consultations - Submissions

some of the submission from the likes of Crown and Quinn talk about reform outside the scope of this bill, but the other big issue that some of the submittors have a problem with is the changing of the consituteuncies of 3 seats for TCD and 3 for NUI to 1 national constituency for all 6 seats

TCD won't like this, obviously there would be huge imbalance to have NUI constituency and a TCD only constituency


Politics.ie Thread

Ratio of Votes and Seats Change
Animated Votes vs Seats Treemap showing change of ratio.





Report Of The Working Group On Seanad Reform Page 30





One person one vote suggests the votes are of equal weight but in the reform proposals they are not.

VotersVotesSeatsVotes PCSeats PCCitizen Vote:Seat Ratio
Taoiseach1110.00003115998659%18%901294.5334
Politicians1167130.03636370435%22%912.7388746
electorate~24580763076.59361519%50%1
Graduates~750000623.36998994%10%0.6554869333


One citizen, one vote - time to reform the Seanad elite Dr Elaine Byrne Independent.ie

Seanad Sankey
Seanad Bubble Chart

Nominating Bodies
Seanad Reform Report
1
RECOGNITION OF NOMINATING BODIES
Bodies with the right to nominate to each panel are updated and published annually. Any eligible body may receive recognition but those bodies seeking recognition are required to have strict rules governing articles of association, finance, audit, management, etc. Additionally, the body’s objects must relate to or be connected with the interests and services listed in the Constitution. It is also a requirement that members of the body must be representative of persons who have knowledge and practical experience in the relevant interests. The detailed rules for recognition are clearly outlined in the legislation.

Seanad Bill 2015
Italics shows different from current law. Section 8 of the Act of 1947

Nominating bodies.
10.
(1) Section 8 of the Act of 1947 is amended by substituting the following for section 8(2)(b)
–
“(b) a body shall not be eligible to be registered in the register in respect of any particular constituency unless either—
(I)
(i) its objects and area of interest primarily relate to or are directly connected with the interests and services mentioned in subsection 1° of section 7 of Article
18 of the Constitution in respect of that particular panel, and
(i) it has in place a set of corporate governance rules which detail the objectives, structure and rules applicable to the organization, and
(ii) its activities are concerned mainly with such interests and services, or
(II) it has an active body of members are representative of persons who have knowledge and practical experience of such interests and services;”.

Knowledge and practical experience.
11. Part IV of the Act of 1947 is amended in Chapter II by inserting the following before section 25 -

“Knowledge and practical experience.
24A.
(1) This section gives further effect to the requirement set out in Article 18.7 of the Constitution which requires a person seeking to be a candidate in a Seanad general election to have knowledge and practical experience of the interests and services pertaining to the constituency in respect of which he or she is seeking to be elected.
(2) The requirement that a person mentioned in subsection (1) have knowledge and practical experience of the interests and services pertaining to the constituency in respect of which he or she is seeking to be elected may be met by establishing to the satisfaction of a judicial referee that he or she has-
(i)
(a) attained a formal qualification, or
(b) through several years of work experience, has attained a level of knowledge which can be regarding as being equivalent to a formal
qualification, in a field which is of direct relevance to the constituency in respect of which he or she is seeking to become a candidate, and
(ii) has verifiable practical experience which is of direct relevance to the constituency in respect of which he or she is seeking to become a candidate.
(3) Notwithstanding the generality of subsection (1), persons seeking nomination to the–
(a) cultural and educational constituency shall, to the satisfaction of the judicial assessor, demonstrate knowledge and practical experience of the following
interests and services, namely national language and culture, literature, art, education and professional interests;
(b) agricultural constituency shall, to the satisfaction of the judicial assessor, demonstrate knowledge and practical experience of the following interests and services, namely, agriculture and allied interests including the natural environment, the food industry, and fisheries;
(c) labour constituency shall, to the satisfaction of the judicial assessor, demonstrate knowledge and practical experience of the following interests and services, namely, labour, whether organised or unorganised;
(d) industrial and commercial constituency shall, to the satisfaction of the judicial assessor, demonstrate knowledge and practical experience of the following
interests and services, namely, industry and commerce, including banking, finance, accountancy, engineering, and architecture;
(e) administrative constituency shall, to the satisfaction of the judicial assessor, demonstrate knowledge and practical experience of the following interests and
services, namely, public administration and social services, including voluntary social activities and non-governmental organisations.(4) The onus in establishing the existence of the requisite degree of knowledge and practical experience rests with the aspiring candidate.
(5) A person who has previously served as a member of the Seanad shall be deemed to meet the knowledge and practical experience requirements of Article
18.7 of the Constitution and therefore subsections (2), (3) and (4) shall not apply in respect of the nomination of such persons.
(6) The Seanad Electoral Commission, having consulted with the Minister for Justice, shall appoint a serving or former Judge of the Superior Courts to serve as a judicial assessor for the purpose of this section.
(7) In order to be eligible for inclusion in a replacement candidates list provided for under section 57, a person shall satisfy the requirements of this section



Report of the Working Group on Seanad Reform 2015: Statements
Senator Katherine Zappone: Prior to getting into the proper debate on the Seanad referendum we gathered a group of civil society organisations to inform them about what the vocational aspect of the Seanad meant, and to invite them to consider being nominating bodies as part of our agenda to open up the Seanad and connect with the public. Vocational for us meant sectoral in particular. I like how the various vocational panels are renamed in the report to cover public administration and social services including voluntary social activities. Through the experience, my colleagues and I found that even when we tried to inform civil society groups about what being a registered body meant and about nominating candidates to become part of a panel there was still confusion. As we encouraged them to become registering bodies and they engaged with the Clerk of the Seanad - and I agree with all of the comments made about the Clerk of the Seanad - we found it seemed to be very difficult to go through the process to become a registering body. This is partly because much of the process is based on antiquated law and procedures. In addition to an information campaign to encourage more bodies to register we need to modernise how registration happens and the criteria for organisations to register. One of the stumbling blocks we found is many bodies which want to register may not be considered charities because they are civil rights organisations.organisations.

Seanad Electoral Reform Bill 2013: Order for Second Stage 2013
Senator Katherine Zappone: There is no stated rationale contained in the Bill, or in any research that underpinned the Bill, to abolish the role of nominating bodies. We should change how candidates are nominated to stand for the panels by initiating a dramatic expansion of the nominating bodies. If a Bill were to modernise the criteria whereby an organisation could become a nominating body it would open up Seanad Éireann to civil society. A couple of weeks ago I hosted, along with some of my Independent colleagues, a public meeting for civil society and arts organisations which might be interested in becoming nominating bodies. Representatives of more than 60 organisations showed up and they demonstrated significant enthusiasm for the possibility that this provided them to influence the political process. The potential involvement of these organisations could allow nonmainstream, minority and marginalised voices to become part of Seanad Éireann.

General Scheme of the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill 2014: Statements
Senator Katherine Zappone: This Bill is an opportunity to open up the Seanad but it is also an opportunity to modernise the process through which nominating bodies to the Seanad apply and are approved. Prior to the Seanad referendum, my Independent Senator colleagues and I held a meeting of the current nominating bodies along with a significant number of civil society organisations who were interested in becoming nominating bodies. It was a very well attended, vibrant meeting with over 60 participants. As part of the event, I presented information on how Seanad elections work. I outlined the number and type of panels, how people are nominated, including a mention of the sub-panels and I also described the five vocational panels. Having had some key meetings with Ms Deirdre Lane and Ms Jody Blake prior to that meeting, I was also able to explain how they could register an interest in becoming a nominating body and how they might qualify to become a nominating body.

Many organisations have expressed an interest in becoming nominating bodies. However, we found the administrative process through which organisations apply to become nominating bodies is most outdated. The rules under which the bodies must apply date from the 1947 Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act and contain no provision for electronic communications. Applications must be posted or hand-delivered. More critical than that, the criteria for becoming a nominating body are not absolutely clear to those who wish to apply, as this provision of information is restricted within the 1947 Act. We need to amend the criteria required to become a nominating body so that those organisations which nominate can represent the wide diversity of civil society organisations that have been established since the 1950s. These amendments to the 1947 Act could be incorporated within this Bill which would be a positive move by the Government.

In 2014, we need a more open, transparent and modern process for selecting nominating bodies. If such a process were more straightforward, civil society’s interest in the Seanad could be harnessed to create a more accessible and representative Seanad. I would be happy to discuss these issues further with the Minister’s officials.
Future Matters Submission to Seand Reform Working Group
Another issue of concern is the lack of clear and concise information on the application process for prospective Seanad Nominating Bodies are required to undertake in order to register as a Nominating Body. An Information Campaign which details the application process, the necessary form to be completed and outlines the types of supporting documentation * needed in order to fully satisfy the Seanad Returning Officer of an organisations vocational expertise for the relevant vocational panel.
There is also anecdotal evidence to suggest that some NGOs have found it difficult to complete the process to be admitted to the Administration Panel, notwithstanding their offering of public services to individuals on a charitable basis (eg information provision, free legal advice and representation services etc) due to their advocacy work to campaign for better service provision by the State for their service users. Provision of clear and detailed advice to prospective Nominating Bodies as to the requirements before the commencement of the application period in February each year would be useful in this regard.
* Company constitutive documents (Certificate of Incorporation, Memorandum and Articles of Association, Audited Financial Accounts, Tax Registration Status and any publications produced by the organisation outlining its activities.

Submission on the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill 2014 Senator Feargal Quinn and Senator Katherine Zappone

This submission also wishes to emphasise that in order to open up the Seanad and enhance its democratic credentials, there is a real need to modernise the process through which nominating bodies to the Seanad apply and are approved. The current nomination mechanism is antiquated and does not reflect our modern society. In Seanad Éireann on 11th March this year, during statements on the Seanad Electoral (University Members) (Amendment) Bill 2014, Katherine Zappone said “We need to amend the criteria required to become a nominating body so that those organisations which nominate can represent the wide diversity of civil society organisations that have been established since the 1950s. These amendments to the 1947 Act could be incorporated within this Bill which would be a positive move by the Government. In 2014, we need a more open, transparent and modern process for selecting nominating bodies. If such a process were more straightforward, civil society’s interest in the Seanad could be harnessed to create a more accessible and representative Seanad. I would be happy to discuss these issues further with the Minister’s officials.”


Report of the Working Group on Seanad Reform 2015: Statements Ivana Bacik
I was slightly disappointed that they seem to recommend retention of the current nomination process, which is controlled by the political parties. Maybe I have misread that. In our submission, we make some more radical recommendations for change.

Similarly, on the nomination process, I was slightly disappointed that they seem to recommend retention of the current nomination process, which is controlled by the political parties. Maybe I have misread that. In our submission, we make some more radical recommendations for change.

Labour Senators Submission

Nomination should be possible either through the existing nominating bodies; or by local authorities; or by popular nomination by 500 persons whose names are on the Seanad electoral register.

Registering for Nominating body meeting 2013

The Seanad must be a real balance to Government power Senator Zappone wrote an op-ed about in thejournal.ie in Januray 2013

As it stands now, just 101 organisations are registered to nominate candidates to the five Seanad panels. We think there should be more. For example, let’s consider the Administrative and Voluntary panel with 14 nominating bodies, one of which, People with Disabilities Ireland, has had its funding removed. That leaves 13 organisations (including, unusually, two representing deaf people) nominating on behalf of every voluntary group in the country as well as representing those responsible for administration.

Ads for registering for Seanad nomiantion bodies, from Senators and from Oireachtas.

Civil Society and Arts Organisations Invited to Have a Say on Seanad Reform
Civil Society and Arts Organisations Invited to Have a Say on Seanad Reform

Are you involved with a civil society or Arts organisation? Does your organisation want to have a greater impact on the political process? The Oireachtas is currently accepting applications for new organisations to become nominating bodies for candidates to Seanad Eireann.

Senator Katherine Zappone, Senator Fiach McConghail and Senator Jillian Van Turnhout will hold a meeting of civil Society and Arts organisations in the Central Hotel, Exchequer Street, on Thursday , 7 February at 6.00pm.

Information on the proposed reform of the Seanad will be provided as well as details on how your organisation can apply to become a nominating body.

Organisation that displayed the call to register
National Campaign for the Arts
THe Wheel
Organisations that want to join but havn't (did they write submission re Seanad Reform?

National Womens Council of Ireland

Mentions of applying for Nomination Body register.

Genealogical society Gazette 2006

Mentions of Selection Process
Inclusion Ireland


Recent changes in Nominating Bodies

new or removed nomination bodies for Seanad candidates since 2011

5 removed 11 added
New Removed for YearPanelBody
removedfor2015Cultural and Educational PanelComhdhail Naisiunta na Gaeilge
newfor2015Cultural and Educational PanelInstitute of Guidance Counsellors
newfor2015Labour PanelIrish Internet Association Limited
newfor2015Labour PanelCredit Union Development Society Ltd
newfor2015Industrial and Commercial PanelNational Off-Licence Association
newfor2014Administrative PanelNational Council for the Blind
removedfor2015Administrative PanelAssociation of County and City
removedfor2015Administrative PanelAssociation of Municipal Authorities of Ireland
removedfor2015Industrial and Commercial PanelWest Dublin Chamber of Commerce
newfor2013Cultural and Educational PanelIrish Playwrights and Screenwriters Guild
newfor2013Cultural and Educational PanelTheatre Forum Ireland
newfor2013Cultural and Educational PanelVisual Arts Ireland
newfor2013Labour PanelIndependent Broadcasters of Ireland
newfor2013Administrative PanelCentre of Independent Living Limited
removedfor2012Industrial and Commercial PanelThe Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute
the Association of County and City and
Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland which were merged into the Association of Irish Local Government but it hasn't been added...?

User:Jnestorius/Vocational Panels
Historical list of bodies registered for the nominating bodies subpanel of the Vocational Panels electing senators to Seanad Éireann.

Nomination body rules
Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Act, 1947 PART II. The Register of Nominating Bodies. Establishment and maintenance of register of nominating bodies. 8

SEANAD ELECTORAL (PANEL MEMBERS) ACT, 1954

S.I. No. 91/1954 - Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) (Prescribed Forms) Regulations, 1954.
8 (2) (b) a body shall not be eligible to be registered in the register in respect of any particular panel unless either—
(I) (i) its objects primarily relate to or are connected with the interests and services mentioned in subsection 10 of Section 7 of Article 18 of the Constitution in respect of that particular panel, and
(ii) its activities are concerned mainly with such interests and services, or
(II) its members are representative of persons who have knowledge and practical experience of such interests and services ;
so what they need to do is form civil rights workers association and then have that body apply?


Varadkar calls for urgent reform of the Seanad 23 July 2007 politico.ie Aisling O'Rourke
Calls for reform as survey shows election bodies 'uncontactable' Michael Brennan 24/07/2007



Senators Nominated by Nominating Bodies

Panels of Candidates
Brian Ó'DomhnaillFianna FailThe Dairy Executives' Association
Catherine NooneFine GaelIrish Country Houses and Restaurants Association;The Construction Industry Federation
Colm BurkeFine GaelAssociation of Patent and Trade Mark Attorneys, National Housebuilding Guarantee Company Limited;Nursing Homes Ireland
Denis LandyLabourAssociation of Municipal Authorities of Ireland.
Denis O'DonovanFianna FailIrish Greyhound Owners and Breeders Federation.
Imelda HenryFine GaelVintners’ Federation of Ireland Limited
Jim WalshFianna FailIrish Grain and Feed Association
Labhrás Ó'MurchúFianna FailComhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann
Marc MacSharryFianna FailWholesale Produce Ireland;The Chambers of Commerce of Ireland;
The Insurance Institute of Ireland;Institute of Bankers in Ireland
Marie MoloneyLabourIrish Congress of Trade Unions
Mark DalyFianna FailIrish Deaf Society — National Association of the Deaf;Enable Ireland Disability Services Limited;Irish Kidney Association.
Martin ConwayFine GaelPeople with Disabilities in Ireland Ltd.
Mary WhiteFianna FailIrish Exporters Association Limited.
Maurice CumminsFine GaelThe Irish Conference of Professional and Service Associations.
Michael MullinsFine GaelThe Irish Vocational Education Association.
Ned O'SullivanFianna FailThe Irish Conference of Professional and Service Associations;Irish Congress of Trade Unions.
Paddy BurkeFine GaelIrish Co-operative Organisation Society Limited.
Paschal MooneyFianna FailNational Association of Regional Game Councils.
Pat O'NeillFine GaelNational Association of Regional Game Councils.
Paul BradfordFine GaelThe Irish Thoroughbred Breeders’ Association.
Paul CoghlanFine GaelRGDATA — Retail, Grocery, Dairy and Allied Trades Association
Terry BrennanFine GaelIrish Congress of Trade Unions.
Terry LeydenFianna FailThe Irish Conference of Professional and Service Associations.
Senators Nominated by Nominating Bodies and bodies previously nominated by.
Senators Nominated by Nominating Bodies Panels Panels previously nominated to.

Nomination Process
Senator Terry Leyden describes process of being nominated by ICPSA to Seanad Submissions 2003 pg 7 and continueing dialogue and representation and regular meetings with councillors

On the 4th June 2002, a meeting was held in The Irish Bank Officials Association Headquarters, St Stephen’s Green. I was nominated by the Association. From fourteen applications of nomination, seven were nominated. Those nominated were as follows:

Senator Dan Kiely M.C.C.,
Senator Teresa Ridge M.C.C.,
Cllr Terry Leyden,
Ms Geraldine Feeney,
Mr Sean Lyons,
Cllr Maurice Cummins,
Cllr Gary Keegan

Of the seven nominated, the following were duly elected: Ms Geraldine Feeney, Cllr Terry Leyden, Cllr Maurice Cummins.

Seanad Exhibit
Senators Exhibit Blogpost on how I made it.


Spreadsheet

Oireachtas Research put out an info graphic on the seanad electoral process.

Seanad Éireann Electoral Process Infographic
The graphic illustrates how Seanad Éireann is elected, with a particular focus on the vocational panel elections, and highlights the Constitutional and legislative provisions governing the electoral process.
Seanad Éireann Electoral Process L&RS Note

How Seanad is elected Department of Environment and Local Government.


Links
Seanad nominating bodies thread on Politics.ie.
User:Jnestorius/Vocational Panels Historical list of bodies registered for the nominating bodies subpanel of the Vocational Panels electing senators to Seanad Éireann. by Wikipedia User Jnestorius.

Past Reforms and Present Policy: examining the Seanad Electoral Act, 1947 Elaine Byrne History Hub

Submission to 2003 Review

Seanad Nominting Bodies 2015 Register of Nominating Bodies Archive
Electoral Roll
Seanad General Election List of Candidates
Seanad Count

Councillors
David Norris:Private Members Motion on Seanad Reform - 11th March 2009
A special committee of Seanad Éireann was set up to look into the situation of the renditions at Shannon Airport. This was scuppered because local councillors down in County Clare put the squeeze on the Government parties and the committee was abolished. This shows a distortion of the power through local parish pump politics and that is the main reason I object to the motion.

Seanad Reform Timeline
Dail 29Report on Seanad Reform2004
Dail 30All-Party Seanad Reform Group01/09/2008
Dail 30Seanad Reform: MotionJoe O'Toole 11/03/2009
Dail 30Seanad Reform: MotionDavid Norris 20/01/2010
Dail 30Seanad Reform: MotionJoe O'Toole 03/11/2010
Dail 31Seanad Reform: MotionKatherine Zappone 15/06/2011
Dail 31Seanad Electoral Reform Bill 2013John Crown 01/03/2013
Dail 31Seanad, Bill 2013Senator Katherine Zappone; and Senator Feargal Quinn; and Senator Mary Ann O'Brien 09/05/2013
Dail 31Seanad (No. 2) Bill 2013 [PMB]Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly and Deputy Noel Grealish and Deputy Finian McGrath and Deputy Mattie McGrath and Deputy Shane Ross 28/05/2013
Dail 31Abolishment bill2013-07-17
Dail 31ReferendumFailed 04/10/2013
Dail 31A Bill to Reform the Seanad Senator Katherine Zappone 07/10/2013
Dail 31Seanad Reform: Statements 23/10/2013
Dail 31Seanad Reform Bill 2014Deputy Micheál Martin 09/05/2013
Dail 31Seanad Reform: MotionKatherine Zappone 29/01/2014
Dail 31Political Reform: MotionDavid Norris 12/02/2014
Dail 31100 days21/02/2014
Dail 31Seanad Reform: Motion SF/Adams16/10/2014

Enda Kenny's Seanad flip flop timeline

Other Reports

Fien Gael Abolish Seanad Campaign Informatoin Leaflet

Seanad Electoral Law Commission, 1959 Report. Not available online, re Nomination Boies process.

Creating a balance between political election and vocationalism
: the
recommendations of the 1959 Seanad Electoral Law Commission, or
a variant of these, could be implemented. This would entail division
of each of the five panels into two more sharply differentiated
subpanels. One of these would consist of candidates nominated by
members of the Oireachtas, the electorate to be constituted as at
present. The other would consist of candidates proposed by nominating bodies, the electorate to consist of representatives of
these bodies themselves

Oireachtas 2nd-Report-Seanad 1997
write more about
submission
nominating bodies
councillors influence/ councillors power david norris

need more information on how they discuss with councillors and expert bodies


Government Reforms

Major Reforms Planned for Seanad - Cummins July 24th, 2014

The reforms include:

The Seanad is to review the work of the North South Ministerial Council and the British - Irish Council. The relevant Minister will make statements to the Seanad after attending such meetings.
The Seanad is to review the work of the North South Implementation Bodies;
The Seanad is to continue with the work of its Public Consultation Committee - bringing the citizen closer to Parliament;
The Seanad will continue to invite high profile individuals to address the House to inform and advise on particular areas of expertise;
The Government is to outline its legislative priorities for the year ahead in the Seanad in the same manner as in the Dáil;
The Seanad may review reports of Oireachtas Committees and make recommendations to relevant Ministers;
The Seanad is to debate the European Commission’s annual work programme and review reports from Oireachtas Committees on EU policy proposals;
The Seanad Order of Business is to be re-scheduled to avoid clashes with Oireachtas Committee sittings. This will allow both the Seanad and the Committees to do their work more efficiently and uninterrupted by one another;
The existing system of Adjournment Debates is to be replaced by Commencement Debates which will take place before the daily Order of Business in the Seanad. This will allow Senators to raise issues with Ministers earlier in the day and represents a more effective use of the time of the House and Ministers

Reports of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee
Commencement Matters of Seanad Éireann
Maurice Cummins speech on Seanad Reform Working Group
british-peer-was-asked-for-advice-on-boosting-seanad-profile
Sources have confirmed that the plans involve making the Seanad available, for the first time, for interest and societal groups in areas such as education.
It's understood that an association of guidance counsellors are to become the first group to avail of the new initiative.
Seanad Nomination Bodies

Government response to Private Members bill
Seanad Standing Orders
Modifications currently in effect to the 2011 Edition of Seanad Éireann Standing Orders
Standing Orders of the Seanad
Seanad sittings down 10% since referendum 28 July 2014 Reduced Seanad sittings is governments fault not Seanad
Seanad to introduce reforms to improve efficiency
Standing Orders: Motion section:seanad Kildarestreet.com search.

Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges Reports on changing og Seanad Standing orders.


Seventh report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on standing orders 70a, 71 & 119 and the adoption of new standing orders 113a & 137a (2014.) 16th July 2014
The proposed amendments make provision for-
(i) Post-enactment reports by Ministers on the implementation of Acts and the consideration of such reports by Committees; and
(ii)Pre-legislation considerations by Committes of the draft heads of Bills and additional speaking arrangements at Second Stage where pre-legislative consideration has taken place.

Schedule
Establishment of Committees
Powers of Select Committees
Pre-legislative consideration
Procedure on Second Stage
Post Enactment consideration
That the Report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on Standing Orders 70A, 71 and 119 and the adoption of New Standing Orders 113A and 137A be adopted, laid before the Seanad and printed. 2014-07-17


Eighth report of Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges on standing orders 16, 19, 20, 29, 65, 119 and 123 / Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges (2014.) 15th December 2014

The proposed amendments make provision for-
(i) Replacement of adjournment matters by commencement matters to be taken at the start of sittings on Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays;
(ii) Consequential deferral to a later time on those days of the Order of Business;
(iii) Changing the quorum requirements for a sitting at which commencements matters are being taken and for the Order of Business;
(iv) Enshrining current practice in relation to the nature of amendments to a motion at Second Stage of a bill;
(v) Simplifies procedures for disposal of amendments to a motion for second reading of a Government Bill;
(vi) Simplifies the question on a section of a bill at Committee Stage.

Schedule
Leader of the House
Quorum required
Procedure if no quorum at hour fixed for meetings
Matter for discussion at the commencement of sittings
Quorum of Committee of the whole Seanad
Procedure on Second Stage
New section, Disposal of amendments, Preamble and title.

"That the report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on Standing Orders 16, 19, 20, 29, 65, 119 and 123 be adopted, laid before the House and printed." motion 2014-12-17


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/senators-got-leg-up-before-late-late-showdown-88499.html
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/seanad2013062700021?opendocument

Thursday, 7 May 2015

Presidential Candidate Age Referendum

Im a yes voter, for equality on this position, its that simple, possible pension costs can be limited and are not a reason to vote no, disappointment with the choice of referendums is not a reason to vote no, not wanting a young president is not a reason to prevent others from making that choice.

Referendum Choice

Only two proposals for constitution referendums Jan 26, 2015 Irish Times Harry McGee

Only two of 18 recommendations for constitutional change made by the Convention on the Constitution are to be put to referendum.

Who chose the second referendum, the Taoiseach did, not the convention. Kenny did not want another controversial referendum along side the Marriage Equality Referendum, Fine Gael promised in its manifesto (pg 62) a constitution day where maybe even 3 or 4 referendums would be held on the same day, you could have had mutiple referendums on presidentials issues on the same day. This would have reduced the criticism of this amendment. The Labour manifesto promised a rewritten constitution. They see political reform as luxury, compared to fixing the economy, they didn't spend department man hours on it sooner, they promsied a constitution day,so picked one with little associated work. The Marriage Euqality referendum was also discussed and recommended at the Constitutional Convention but it would have happened anyway.

Referendum Media


Constitutional Convention

How did the issue of president age come up, who sets the questions for the ballot, who has the final say? Tom Arnold, convention chair or the advisors? The First Report of the Convention on the Constitution

It wasn't part of original terms of reference. at bottom of report.

4.Reducing the Presidential term of office to five years and aligning it with the local and European elections.

4.2 Convention discussion on the reduction and alignment of the Presidential Term

Other themes that were raised included; whether to reduce the age of candidacy.

Candidate Minimum Age Requirements at Elections in the Republic of Ireland page 21

The first convention report on presidential term length and voting age includes questions on presidential candidate age. page 7
Reduce the age of candidacy for presidential elections 50 yes 47 no 3 don't know
Other themes that were raised included
and like in the previous session, whether to reduce the age of candidacy

Was it discussed in video's on expert advice? Constitutional Convention Video Archive

Discussed in Emerging Themes Video starting at 19 minutes.

Its seems it came from the table Derek Keating TD was on (he mentioned it in his submission) and from the table Ivana Bacik was on and (Labour's legal advisor Cllr Richard Chambers mentioned it in his submission) and from table 6 (I can't see which politicians were on that table) but generally its seemed to come from a question of having a maximun age for presidency which came from two tables, considering the age of our current president and whether he'd want or feel obliged to do two terms.
at 8 minutes.
Tom Arnold says 'these [questions] are our best effort ot reflect the the discussion'.
The ballot is discussed by the room and it seems the advisors write the ballots after the presentations and after talking with the convention members.
Previous Constitutional Reviews

The Report of the Constitution Review Group (May 1996)
The majority of members favours no change, or only a minor
reduction, in the age limit

commented as follows on this section:
There is an apparent discrepancy between the English
and Irish versions. The Irish version has ‘ag a bhfuil
cúig bliana tríochad slán’ (that is, has completed thirty-
five years), whereas the English version is ‘who has
reached his thirty-fifth year of age’, which could mean
has entered rather than completed that year.
This discrepancy should be removed by substituting the word
‘completed’ for ‘reached’ in the English version.


The First Progress Report of the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution (April 1997) Recommendation reduce to 18.
following this,
recommends (on p. 89) substituting the word ‘completed’
for ‘reached’ in the English text. The Twentieth Amendment
of the Constitution Bill, 1999, which proposed to lower
the age-limit for candidates for the Presidency, dealt with
the noted inconsistency by proposing to substitute ‘the
age of eighteen years’ for ‘his thirty-fifth year of age’ – i.e.
rather than substituting ‘his eighteenth year of age’

Eamon Gilmore introduced a private members bill to reduce the age of candidacy for Irish President Dail in 1999
Twentieth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1999 [PMB]
Catherine Murphy introduced private member bill to reduce age of candidacy for president among other measures in 2011. Thirty-First Amendment of the Constitution (The President) Bill 2011 Seem to be no mention of age from the government rep during the debate.

Gender Neutral
The amendment proposes to mark the sub-article gender neutral.

Every citizen who has reached his thirty-fifth year of age is eligible for election to the office of President.
Every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible for election to the office of President.

English Irish discrepancy

There is a issue in the contradiction between the English version saying the candidate needs to be 35 and the Irish version saying the candidate needs to be 34, the Irish version of law takes precedence.
Richard Humphreys Labour's Councillors and legal advisor mentioned it, Richard Humphreys Submission. 21/01/2013,

5. If the voting age is reduced, I would strongly urge the Convention to recommend that as a consequential measure, the age for eligibility to be a member of the Dail be reduced to 18. Nor can I see any logical reason why one is not a “full citizen” in the sense of being eligible to be President, until age 35. The onerous requirements regarding nomination of the President are a sufficient guarantee of the capacity of the candidate. Insofar as there is a distinction between the precise terms of the English and Irish text as to the age of the President, this should also be addressed. Any reduction in the age of parliamentarians or local authority members below 18 would be more problematic given that it could be said that there is a need for the parliamentarian or indeed member of a local authority to be of full legal capacity.

6. I would therefore suggest that the age to be a TD or President be reduced to 18 and the age to vote in Dail elections be reduced to 16.

Derek Keating TD raised it in his submission research by Seery Kearney, Mary, Parliamentary Assistant
Derek Keating TD Submission to Constitution convention 23/01/2013,
Eligibility to become President of Ireland and the election of the President

To be eligible as a candidate for the Presidency, the candidate must be an Irish citizen of 35 years or more.1 There is a conflict between the English and Irish texts of the Constitution with regard to the eligibility age, the English text states that the candidate must be at least 35 years, and the Irish text states that the candidate must have completed his/her 35th year, meaning they must be 36 years of age. Article 25.5.4 provides that the Irish text prevails in an interpretation of the constitution; therefore, the age is 36 years. While this has, thus far, never arisen as an issue, it is a matter which requires amendment at the opportune time.

Bunreacht na hEireann - Study of the Irish Text
pg 139
Divergences between the official texts
1 While the English text requires a Presidential candidate
to have ‘reached his thirty-fifth year of age’, which it
has been noted the candidate would do on his thirty-
fourth birthday, the Irish text requires him to have
completed thirty five years.

Did convention experts mention it in their speeches or reports?
Plenary Meeting 26/27 January - Voting Age/ Presidential Term

Cost

Minister, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform Brendan Howlin said having two referendums at the same time would cost 13% more.
Referendum Expenditure 11 February 2015

Returning Officer Costs for taking the poll and counting of votes€10.2m
Postal Costs (primarily delivery of Polling Cards)€1.4m
Referendum Commission Costs€2.4m
Other Costs (including printing)€0.4m

If we compare cost for singualar Ref in 2012 and then two Ref on the same day in 2013.
Consultation Paper on the Establishment of an Electoral Commission in Ireland table 9 page 29
Expenses / Children-2012 / Seanad Abolition and Court of Appeal-2013
Total / €11,135,735 / €11,893,174

plus around 2 million referendum commission costs page table 7, 27

7% difference?

cost for 2 is ~€13m

Bill

21st January 2015 Minister Kelly announces Government Agreement on the Amendment of the Constitution (Age of Eligibility for Election to the Office of President) Bill 2015 Minister Kelly announces Government Agreement on the Amendment of the Constitution (Age of Eligibility for Election to the Office of President) Bill 2015

22/01/2015 Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Age of Eligibility for Election to the Office of President) Bill 2015
25/03/2015 Statement for Information of Voters: Motion
25/03/2015 Second Stage Charlie McConague: it was the unfufilled grand promise of a Constitution day thats upsetting people more so then that this topic was chosen
25/03/2015 Second Stage (Resumed) olivia mitchell says, regarding age, the difference between president and td is that no single td can make such great changes on his own, while the president can...
25/03/2015 Committee and Remaining Stages AAA/SP proposed amendments for 18 to be age,for 5k signatures for nomination, alter oath, remove god, alter voter restriction
31/03/2015 Second Stage all ruled out of order apart from age 18 that was voted down
01/04/2015 Committee and Remaining Stages

Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Age of Eligibility for Election to the Office of President) Bill 2015

The Schedule of the Bill — Part 1 provides for the amendment of the Irish text of Article 12.4.1° of the Constitution to provide that every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible
for election to the office of President.

The Schedule of the Bill — Part 2 provides for the amendment of the English text of Article 12.4.1° of the Constitution to provide that every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible for election to the office of President. The English text is based on the text of Article 16.1.1° of the Constitution, which provides that every citizen ‘who has reached the age of twenty-one years. . .’ is eligible for membership of Dáil Éireann. The approach taken in the Constitution Amendment Bill addresses a potential conflict between the Irish and English text of Article 12.4.1° as it currently stands — while the Irish text requires a presidential candidate to have completed thirty-five years of age, the English text requires the candidate only to have ‘reached his [or her] thirty-fifth year of age’, which one would do on one’s thirty-fourth birthday. Both the Irish and English texts of the Bill are aligned and provide that every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible for election to the office of President.

Statement for Information of Voters: Motion
This is what appears on the back of the voting card.

The only real arguement the gov gives.

2015-03-25 Ann Phelan Minister of State with responsibility for rural economic development and rural transport at the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Transport, Tourism and Sport. (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
I am satisfied that the Government's approach in linking the age of eligibility requirement to that which applies to the case of the Dáil and the European Parliament, is the logical and, therefore, the appropriate approach.

Paudie Coffey Government Chief Whip (Waterford, Fine Gael) 2015-03-31
I have also noted commentary in the media and elsewhere that the referendum proposal in the Bill is, in some way, not as significant as some of the other proposals for constitutional reform that have emerged from the Constitutional Convention. I do not accept that view. Article 12 of the Constitution provides that the President shall "take precedence over all the other persons in the State" and "shall exercise and perform the powers and functions conferred on the President by this Constitution and by law". Given this position in the Constitution, the proposal to reduce the age at which a citizen is eligible for election to the Of

Referendum Commision
Presidential Age
13/04/2015 13:00:00 Judge Kevin Cross, Head of the Referendum Commission, on the launch of their awareness campaign for the upcoming referenda
referendum-commission RTE news
RefCom leaflet is very brief.

The Age of Presidential Candidates Referendum
In this referendum, you may vote
Yes or No to the proposal to reduce the age at which candidates are eligible for election to the office of President from 35 to 21.
The proposal is contained in the Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Age of Eligibility for Election to the Office of President) Bill 2015


The current Article 12.4.1° of the Constitution states:
Every citizen who has reached his thirty-fifth year of age is eligible for election to the office of President.
It is proposed to replace this with:
Every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible for election to the office of President.

Cost of Pension
Baby presidents would get 125k a year for life Sunday Independent.

Interesting point but the government can simply limit the pension to to retirement age. Perhaps parties could make that point.

Government already reduced the president's pay by 23% under financial emergency measures in the public interest amendment bill 2011 minister-brendan-howlin-second-stage-speech
Financial emergency measures in the public interest amendment Act 2011

Political Reform

How many no voters were there for #presref in Labour that they chose not to take a position?
I know the Labour Pary doesn't enforce party line on referendums but doesn't lack of active effort by TDs not undermine political reform.
I know referendums are different and theres no whip,but Labour cabinet members proposed it you think TDs would make an effort one way or the other.
Labour will not take position on presidential age referendum15/04/2015 Irish Times Mary Minihan

No Campaigns

Mike McKillen/Dick Spicer CITIZENS SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE
Olivia Mitchell FG TD
Gerard Howlin Columnist Irish Examiner professional contrarian
Colum Kenny Columnist Irish Independent,DCU media Prof professional contrarian
Ian Robertson Prof of Psychology TCD,
Maeve Dineen Columnist & comms specialist
Professor Ian Robertson TCD: 21 year olds don't have the neural connections to be President Debate on Marian Finuncane Radio Show .mp3 at 4 min

A number of No campaigners are professional contrarians with Column Kenny not arguing on the issue.

No: Why we should vote against lowering the age of candidates eligible to become President
Referendum on president mocks real needs of young

First radio debate on this referendum Olivia Mitchell FG No vs Brian Stanly SF yes
Newstalk Breakfast 17th_April_2015

Olivia Mitchell said not calling for a no vote, won't be voting yes, say you act alone as president, not so with Taoiseach who needs TDs votes. As she did during the Dail debate.

Yes Campaign
Mairead Healy Future Voices
Law Society
Youthwork Ireland Michael McLaughlin
USILaura Harmon
Fine Gael Michael Noonan, Leo?
"It's peculiar that you can be President if you are 35 and you can't if you're 34, that would have excluded people like Michael Collins and The Lord himself.
Presidential Age limits would have excluded Michael Collins from the Aras, says Noonan Independent 05/05/2015
Alan Kelly said he would publically advocate for a yes if he was raised with him while canvassing on the Marriage Equality referendum.

Growing criticism over the lack of debate on the age of presidential candidates referendum. RTE News 5th May 2015


Labour are taking no position, but referendums are different and strict enforcement of party line is not always applied. Joanna Tuffy TD is a no

Popstars are popstars not politician no need to mention them.

Constitution


25/05/1937 Draft of the 13th Article of the constitution Bunreacht na hEireann (Dréacht)—Coiste (ath-thogaint).

Links
Constitution of Ireland Wikpedia.

List of presidential qualifications by country

Age of candidacy

Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution Age of Eligibility for Election_to_the_Office of President Bill 2015

...
not voting for 21 year old president